Freedom Fighters Need Bitcoin | Lyudmyla Kozlovska & Bota Jardemalie

This post was originally published on https://tftc.io by Marty Bent.

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Key Takeaways

The latest episode of the podcast brought to light the pressing issue of bitcoin mining regulation, focusing on the scrutiny it faces from regulators in both the European Union (EU) and the United States (US). The guests, human rights defenders Lyudmyla Kozlovska and Bota Jardemalie, shared their personal experiences and the critical role bitcoin plays as a life-saving tool for activists living under authoritarian regimes.

The conversation delved into the potential proof of work ban in the EU and its implications. Luda, the founder of Open Dialogue Foundation, a nonpartisan human rights organization, highlighted the vital importance of bitcoin as a financial tool when traditional banking services are weaponized by authoritarian states. This has led to severe consequences, including the torture and imprisonment of activists.

Bota, also a human rights defender and lawyer, emphasized the negative perceptions of bitcoin mining, painting it as both an environmental threat and a security risk. They discussed the European Securities and Markets Authority (ESMA) efforts to develop sustainability indicators for crypto assets, which could lead to a de facto ban on proof of work by discouraging investment in assets deemed unsustainable.

The guests also touched on similar concerns in the US, where the Energy Information Administration is collecting data on crypto miners' energy usage, potentially leading to biased reports and unjust regulatory action. Marty, the host, expressed concern over the misguided narrative that bitcoin is primarily used for nefarious purposes, countering that it is a tool for freedom and economic empowerment.

Lyuda and Bota called for collective action to change the narrative and educate regulators about the positive impact of bitcoin, especially for those defending human rights. They stressed the importance of presenting personal testimonials to EU and US officials and the need for community support to continue their advocacy work.

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Best Quotes

1. "For us, bitcoin is something death and life tool saving life too, while, for example, we don't have privileges like most of people living in democratic countries." - Lyuda
2. "We, as the end users of bitcoin, we realize that it's absolutely necessary to defend bitcoin and specifically proof of work in the European Union." - Bota
3. "It's particularly interesting that right now, Europe particularly, and even the US, to a certain extent, have began using bias and discriminating against bitcoin mining at a time when both our energy systems are relatively weak." - Marty
4. "If you enjoy financial freedom, if you enjoy any kind of freedom, that means that someone did this job centuries or maybe years ago, and we right now doing the same in our countries and European Union and the US." - Lyuda
5. "Rights aren't granted. They're taken and defended." - Marty
6. "We believe in bitcoin, we believe in its power and we believe that the civil society around the world should adopt it." - Bota

Conclusion

The discussion underscored the urgency with which the bitcoin community must come together to protect the core principles that make bitcoin a powerful tool for human rights. The potential regulations targeting proof of work and peer-to-peer transactions pose a significant threat not just to the cryptocurrency industry but to the very essence of financial freedom that bitcoin represents.

The personal stories shared by Lyuda and Bota serve as a stark reminder that for many around the world, bitcoin is more than a financial asset; it's a lifeline. The overarching message of the episode is a call to action for bitcoin users, miners, and advocates to unite in educating and influencing policymakers. The episode concludes with a sense of cautious optimism, a belief that through collective effort and strategic activism, the freedoms that bitcoin facilitates can be preserved and expanded for the benefit of all.

Timestamps

0:00 - Intro
8:00 - EU attacks on Bitcoin
18:58 - Abuse of KYC/AML
25:10 - Confronting regulators about their consequences
37:45 - Timeline on preventing EU action
41:15 - What can be done
47:52 - What does the success of Bitcoin look like
50:11 - What it’s like when they come for you
52:50 - The laws are more draconian and less effective
58:04 - Narrative war
1:02:31 - Complacency
1:07:39 - Dealing with the stress
1:12:55 - Wrapping up

Transcript

00:00:02:05 - 00:00:05:05
Marty
Botha and Luda. Welcome to the show.

00:00:05:07 - 00:00:07:18
Lyuda
Hello. Hello, everyone. Thank you.

00:00:07:24 - 00:00:38:05
Marty
Witness Thank you for coming on. It's been nice getting to know you too over the last month or so, I guess a little. We met in Nashville at the Energy and Mining Summit, which was really cool event and it was really cool to have you there, considering what you guys are working on in the EU. And I guess the topic of today is regulators both in the EU and now the U.S. really focusing on Bitcoin mining as something that needs to be taken care of.

00:00:38:05 - 00:01:00:21
Marty
And you two are on the front lines in the EU to make sure that there isn't a proof of work ban throughout the European Union, which is on the table right now. So I guess I can just start with what is going on in the European Union. Why have they honed in on proof of work and what could happen if nothing is done in the next few months?

00:01:00:24 - 00:01:32:05
Lyuda
Yeah, allow me maybe to start a bit. Also introducing myself why we together with water and other activists, are doing this work. So first of all, I'm human defender. I am the president and founder of Open Dialog Foundation. This is a human rights organization, international nonpartisan and nonprofit organization. And we became a victim, a target of attack, coordinated attack of a three ton regime back in 2008 in the course of our human rights work on international level.

00:01:32:08 - 00:02:11:23
Lyuda
So we had all protection like political protection, even President Macron of Germany, parliaments of France, Belgium, Germany and many others supported us. And with all of this protection, we were not able to be protected financially. So regimes were able to weaponize our banking data, basically depriving them the right to have financial services in the heart of Europe. And this is the reason why we discovered and use Bitcoin as a tool to resist against transnational repression when authoritarian regimes abuse, financial action, task force recommendations and the group you all financial data to prosecute your donors and recipients of the funds.

00:02:11:26 - 00:02:35:26
Lyuda
As a consequence, our volunteers and our human rights defenders in the authoritarian states were tortured, disappeared or were in prison for many years. So for us, Bitcoin is something death and life tool saving life tool. Well, for example, we don't have privileges like most of people living in democratic countries. And this is a reason why we educate regulators.

00:02:35:29 - 00:03:08:04
Lyuda
This is the reason why we defend proof of work which actually can guarantee us as a human right defenders financially excluded people the use of financial tool as a payment and this fundraising instrument and this is the reason why also my colleague both time when you are the activist of a building to change coalition, we bring this topic hearing all the time questions why you use Bitcoin, why you use this instrument if it's associated with the energy and actually security threats, it can harm environment.

00:03:08:04 - 00:03:19:26
Lyuda
It's actually dangerous for our energy security. And I think what I will mention actually what exactly we address right now.

00:03:19:28 - 00:03:55:16
Bota
Yeah. Thank you, Linda. Yeah, I'm a human rights defender and a lawyer, and we've been working together with Luke Muir for many, many years, for almost 15 years. And right now is one of the issues that we are working is this is what we call Bitcoin advocacy. So we is the end users of Bitcoin. We realize that that's absolutely necessary to defend Bitcoin and specifically proof of work in the European Union started with the European Union.

00:03:55:16 - 00:04:25:17
Bota
But I would go to the US after. So what you'd already mentioned when we were bombarded with this questions how you use technologies that is bad for the environment, that is energy wasting. And so we started looking where this information is coming from, what's happening at the EU level. And we realize that there are two kind of major attack on Bitcoin consensus mechanism of on proof of work right?

00:04:25:19 - 00:04:56:08
Bota
First of all, this is perceived by the regulator, by the European Commission, by the European Securities and Markets Authority, by the European Central Bank as energy based in mechanisms that is dangerous for the European Energy security and as well as there is an attack, that it's extremely dangerous technology for the environment, that it has a very high carbon footprint.

00:04:56:13 - 00:05:23:13
Bota
So it's bad for the environment. And when we say that this is something that is ban of bit of proof of work is on the table in the European Union, everyone seeing that there will be some kind of views that they would specifically specific language that proof of work is banned since January one. Right. But no, it's not how it works.

00:05:23:18 - 00:06:04:06
Bota
The way how it works is that right now, the so-called ESMA Esma is the European Securities and Markets Authority is developing sustainability indicators. So this sustainability indicators for all cryptocurrencies activities and specifically for Bitcoin consensus mechanism. And so as they will be deciding, they will develop a standard. It's what crypto assets, so-called sustainable. So good for the environment or not, at least not bad for the environment.

00:06:04:08 - 00:06:37:29
Bota
And what kind of crypto assets are not good, not sustainable. And the problem is that if we look at the narrative that exist, it's everywhere level, all the European Union, we see that there's very, very negative perception of the Bitcoin mining. And I would say there's a student this a really discriminatory treatment in the bias that exist. Is it the institutions?

00:06:38:02 - 00:07:22:24
Bota
Because this is something that they are not doing the research asking why, you know, voters, that this is how it's used, etc.. No, they are already specifically created this bias in the information, the sources that they're using. They are something that would have concerns. This is something that is not, you know, peer reviewed literature right now. It's usually something that is some newspaper articles or research reports that were specifically focused on negative externalities of Bitcoin.

00:07:22:26 - 00:08:10:06
Bota
And of course, we worry about this very much. We know that the deadline is coming. It's the 1st of January 2021 or 25, sorry, that European Parliament is expecting a proposal from the European Commission. And so they want to know what kind of group activities consider it to be sustainable and what is not. And if it's something is not sustainable, you have to remember that means that this basically that it's something that they all the institutions, specifically European Central Bank, will create a disincentive to invest into that particular asset.

00:08:10:08 - 00:08:44:29
Bota
And that's why it's very dangerous. And we see that the similar trend is happening in the US right now. And this really in parallel because you, you, you probably know that is the EU Energy Information Administration already started collecting information from crypto miners about their energy use and they have specific deadlines by which the information be collected. That's in by the end of July 2024.

00:08:45:02 - 00:09:12:05
Bota
And after that, the Energy Information Administration will start publishing its reports. Right. But we already see that there is a certain bias even in the way how they are started to question in the industry about the energy use. So we can see that the developments is happening on both sides of the pot.

00:09:12:07 - 00:09:38:29
Marty
Yeah, it feels like the wall, not the walls, are caving in, but it feels like the pressure is certainly on. And as you too mentioned, there's a ton of bias, a ton of discrimination. It's really disheartening as somebody I've been involved in the mining industry for six years now here in the United States, and it's abundantly clear to me, utilities providers, energy producers, that Bitcoin is additive to their operations.

00:09:38:29 - 00:10:19:10
Marty
Bitcoin is just driven by pure economics. Is there Bitcoin mining to take advantage of wasted, stranded energy sources to make these energy systems more efficient to the point where it's enabling producers and utilities companies to reinvest, to build out more reliable infrastructure? And it's particularly interesting that right now Europe particularly, and even the U.S. to a certain extent, have began using bias and discriminating against Bitcoin mining at a time when both our energy systems are relatively weak to where they were only a decade or two ago.

00:10:19:10 - 00:10:47:11
Marty
I mean, specifically in Europe, Germany being the prime example of a country that completely destroyed its energy system over the last 20 years and can use all the help it could get. And if action isn't taken in the next few months, they will completely block out a source of energy efficiency in Bitcoin mining that could really help them make their grid systems more stable.

00:10:47:11 - 00:11:21:23
Marty
It's really insane. And then on top of that, again, bringing bias and discrimination to it like we see outside of mining this bitcoin in general. The line here in the United States as I'm sure it is in Europe as well, is that bitcoin's only used by criminals, drug users, money launderers. And as you to explain earlier and have shown through your work with human rights activists, like no, it's actually enabling human rights activists to evade despotic governments.

00:11:21:26 - 00:11:40:20
Marty
And in fact the KYC, AML regulations that you want to thrust on everybody using a non-custodial wallet put them in danger because the despotic governments use these this information from KYC, AML policies to target dissidents.

00:11:40:23 - 00:12:31:10
Lyuda
Yeah, exactly. And I would like to say that with the perspective of what's happening, Wolf, in the US, in you, if you compare this two countries in the US, you at least have voices and very active miners, Bitcoin miners and Bitcoin community who educates regulators. But again, even with this work, when we been last two weeks in the Senate and Congress and also we met with State Department with Financial action task forces, we conducted over 27 meetings in person during this all our advocacy mission in DC the first time heard how anti-money laundering regulation, how Financial Action Task Force's recommendation abused by dictators, how banking data weaponized not only in authoritarian states domestically, but how

00:12:31:10 - 00:13:10:10
Lyuda
they actually can be all exposed in democracies. And we conducted the first round table for our CRYPTOASSETS, where we testified about this unfortunate experience and the consequences of this regulation from one side, but from other sites. We provided recommendations and tools we used to resist, again, this transnational repressions, authoritarian regimes, when basically email, emails and safety regulation is used as a transnational tool against the opposition and everyone around us and civil society and human rights activists, even abroad, not only domestically.

00:13:10:13 - 00:13:38:25
Lyuda
So we see actually positive attitude. And so, for example, we were asked, okay, guys, what you want? And we said, we want to have neutral language to listen to Bitcoin and proof of work and actually beautiful transactions, privacy instruments like mixers, because we have no other tools. And we got response, okay, we need to then to have this dialog.

00:13:38:26 - 00:14:01:18
Lyuda
So if you go to to bring to the miners, for example, who will testify along with you how it operates, will you will you help us to understand it? And I think this is a kind of key, key moment when we can bring voices from one side as end users, those who use this technology. We are not perceived as lobbyists and we are not lobbyists.

00:14:01:18 - 00:14:23:03
Lyuda
We just defend our human rights and Bitcoin Bitcoin for us human rights because we don't have other instruments. And for many of us it's a question of life and death. We don't have this privilege to choose. And I'm actually paying today with these credit cards or these credit cards. We just don't have credit cards. These are our reality and this is how we live.

00:14:23:05 - 00:14:50:15
Lyuda
So these perspective change narratives and we need to remember that right now narratives are shaping our lives and shaping decision making process of politicians, and we need to have voices. So Bitcoiners from all over the world, because EU is going to approach regulation to mining in a global way as a G7 countries. So once it's adopted in you, they want to use and waterless methodology.

00:14:50:15 - 00:15:20:14
Lyuda
Talk to other G7 countries and we don't want to allow any democracy to use in a regulatory language negative association labeling towards to Bitcoin or proof of work of peer to peer transactions or any privacy instruments because it affects our life entirely. Imagine for us the only instrument we have to protect political prisoners, victims of tortures. It's actually to have support of democracies, democratic governments.

00:15:20:16 - 00:15:45:01
Lyuda
And this these democratic governments labeled the only instrument we have how to deliver humanitarian aid, how to support families of political prisoners as illicit activity, as a threat to national security, energy security, Environmental Council. That means that all three China is you immediately going to use this against everyone who is using this instrument to receive our help. We don't want it.

00:15:45:01 - 00:16:11:29
Lyuda
We don't want it to allow even to happen. And this is the reason why we educate and this is the reason why we try to bring as much as possible awareness, how and why we use Bitcoin as a tool for human rights and humanitarian needs. And when we asked by regulators, okay, so for example, they said, you know, we can shun because criminals are using Bitcoin as the instrument.

00:16:11:29 - 00:16:38:02
Lyuda
And of course every technology can be used by better actors and good doctors. But we as the good doctors, we should have a legal way how to use it. You should not punish us because some criminals using these instruments or provide us the instruments to operate in authoritarian states where most of people financially excluded for political reasons and they have no answer what to provide us.

00:16:38:05 - 00:17:08:26
Lyuda
And this is a reason why we think it's really important to educate right now when there is huge speed to weather this kind of, you know, this wish to show results quickly, especially before elections in Europe, when the main demand from the society to deal with energy crisis and environmental crisis. And we don't want proof of work and Bitcoin mining be in general just a scapegoat where it's easy to punish this technology because there is no waste in defense.

00:17:08:29 - 00:17:12:24
Lyuda
We should not allow this.

00:17:12:27 - 00:17:15:22
Marty
No further join Japan.

00:17:15:27 - 00:18:10:23
Bota
No, I just, you know, basically covered all ground. But I just want to say that how we present it to the regulator, right, when we see that this this instrument is used by terrorist and money. Money wondrous. Right. But we as activists will been accused in money laundering in the in being members of extremist terrorists are organizations in being a threat to national security by the regimes where we defend human rights and just kind of an example, once we walked into a meeting with people from the commission that were drafting the anti-money laundering regulations and we wanted to discuss this problem of abuses, of this of this language, that that is an instrument of money

00:18:10:25 - 00:18:36:09
Bota
and financing of terrorism. First thing we ask, we ask them, Have you ever met a real terrorist or a man? You wonder in their kind of. No, of course not. You know, in our line of business, we don't really meet them. And we said, I'm a man. You wonder and accuse of being mining wanderer and member of an extremist organization.

00:18:36:17 - 00:19:24:20
Bota
You there is a threat to national security and money laundering as well. We had with us a person from the Valley Foundation and we said that at that time they were was they were our foreign agents, terrorists and money launderers. And so we had active news from all over the world in one room, and we all were labeled by dictators, by authoritarian regimes, that we are those criminals, but we are normal people and we actually defend human rights and we work with the institutions and we explain what kind of the new whistle blowers about the crimes committed by many regimes.

00:19:24:23 - 00:19:57:15
Bota
So when you Liebowitz acknowledges that there's an instrument for money launderers, you you really create this bias. It's exactly how this authoritarian regimes create bias against us. And this is something that we want to fight against. And we have our examples We can explain to the regulator what what is happening. But at the same time, we need people from the industry explaining this side of the story, saying that, you know, this is a regulation, this is how they work.

00:19:57:17 - 00:20:36:01
Bota
And if there is an article about this person that is person is committed some crimes, even if it's not proven, it just a pure, a pure, a piece of, you know, fake news. Right. They still going to take your bank account away because of the existing regulations. So what we need to do, we need to have people from the regulated industry and people like us to show the consequences or to the regulators the consequences of their actions, how people like us get financially excluded.

00:20:36:04 - 00:21:05:09
Marty
And the really disheartening thing about all of this is the two tiered system that exists. I mean, the amount of money laundering that happens and is facilitated via the U.S. dollar far exceeds anything that Bitcoin does on a day to day, year to year basis or is done historically. And then these same regulators that are really close with the banking and financial industry specifically let these banks get away with murder.

00:21:05:11 - 00:21:42:04
Marty
I think sometimes quite literally, but figuratively mainly. I mean, we had Jp morgan settle out of court with the U.S. Virgin Islands. They made a $75 million fine so that they wouldn't have to go to court and have discovery around the fact that Jp morgan was banking Jeffrey Epstein as he was laundering money for sex trafficking operation, obviously, famously, which HSBC in the Mexican drug cartels, they had teller windows that had slots where briefcases full of cash could be pushed through by by the drug cartels.

00:21:42:04 - 00:22:13:01
Marty
They paid a small fine for that. And yet here comes Bitcoin, which isn't facilitating a lot of this. Yes, as you mentioned, both criminals can certainly use it, but it's a technology. They drink, water they use to fake security as well. We don't throw these things, make them illegal because terrorists are using them. And it's what I toil with personally and like, are these regulators, is that lazy that they're willing to bring a sledgehammer and smash anything that can be used by a criminal?

00:22:13:03 - 00:22:41:20
Marty
Or are they more nefarious where they recognize the freedom that Bitcoin enables? And they don't like that freedom because it doesn't allow them to exert control that they would otherwise like to have. And that's where I see the sort of crossroads that we're at right now. It could be a Bitcoin here. It is one of the most freedom enabling technologies that humanity's ever come into contact with, and that really scares governments that that like control.

00:22:41:24 - 00:22:54:11
Marty
And it's convincing them that, hey, you're going to have to be comfortable giving up control because freedom is more important than you controlling everybody's everyday life and what they do with their money.

00:22:54:13 - 00:23:18:08
Lyuda
I think we still have hope anyways because I mean, we have concrete results, right? For the last two years of our advocacy for Bitcoin in order to protect it as a payment and fundraising instrument, we succeed to do so in EU and European Union. So we have an upcoming regulation actually recognition that CRYPTOASSETS can be used as a fundraising instrument and actually payment instruments.

00:23:18:11 - 00:23:47:19
Lyuda
We hopefully would have also provisions to defend and protect financial data of both financial institutions and cryptoasset services providers. And we also have a provision about abuse of anti-money laundering regulation, a mechanism especially disinformation, to financially exclude people. So specific categories refugees, civil society, organization even mentioned in a regulation. But it's not enough. And unfortunately, G7 countries were not happy about our achievements.

00:23:47:19 - 00:24:14:29
Lyuda
And this is the reason why we came to us two weeks ago to speak. We saw 27 representative self-regulatory bodies, both Senate's Financial Action Task Force, a State Department and Congress, because the US acting from one side that they create domestic legislation right now is the process of reform of anti-monopoly regulation and actually shaping crypto regulation in the US.

00:24:15:05 - 00:24:45:06
Lyuda
But it's not true. Whenever U.S. decides to ship we in regulatory way domestically, it's affect affects entire world. And when G7 countries, U.S. demand, for example, where they say that's okay, we have to look into peer to peer transactions now self-hosted wallets as a something what is threat to financial integrity. It's affect, of course, other democracies. And we afraid that our achievements here in EU will be questioned.

00:24:45:06 - 00:25:08:16
Lyuda
So we need to gain to defense of course, of wallet. We need to defend mixers as a privacy tools and do these above work. And we cannot ignore it because, for example, yesterday in Davos and we have discussion with some bitcoiners and they said you can just simply not comply. I cannot not comply because I get protection from you.

00:25:08:16 - 00:25:37:07
Lyuda
And for example, my life would be literally under threat if I would not get protected from the attack since 2008 by three authoritarian regimes. And I'm really grateful for being protected. But from other side, I protect another people, political prisoners and all of us. We need to have both support of democracies and we need to be able to use Bitcoin as a peer to peer transactions, as a decentralized mechanism built on proof of work mechanism.

00:25:37:09 - 00:26:24:18
Lyuda
So we need to provide security for developers of privacy instruments and also for miners if we don't succeed to do those things, this means that we lose our the only instrument. And luckily we have seen support from those regulators and legislators who approve human rights. Of course, you always have bad actors in every sphere, but how we succeed to have this changes how we succeed, to have a different national inter-parliamentary platforms, provisions that reflect See yourself Bitcoin and Stablecoins for human rights and humanitarian purposes in the regulations for 57 Member States more nor for America, Europe and Asia, actually, thanks to these people.

00:26:24:20 - 00:26:50:08
Lyuda
So there are people and legislators who listen in us. But the problem is we need to remove voices. We need them to educate, make face to face meetings where they cannot direct questions. They will never risk it to us, even online or publicly. But they need to be able to to get this information. It's an effort, but it's a safe effort because you cannot do this activity in authoritarian states.

00:26:50:10 - 00:27:19:18
Lyuda
Remind yourself what's happened in Kazakhstan back in January 2022, when most of miners were just cut off of Internet. You know why it happened? It's actually was the days when authorities of Kazakhstan employed Russian troops and domestically troops to shoot peaceful protesters. They not only should freedoms, they should real people. They killed Bitcoin mining in Kazakhstan and they killed their citizens who were protesting for freedoms.

00:27:19:20 - 00:27:46:03
Lyuda
So the same we do right now. We have two transactions in Kazakhstan on the fault of fighting against to be transactions and everything around Salesforce. It was everything actually around any kind of financial freedoms in the most sophisticated action regime, able to lift sanctions from Russian banks in this country of in the US. And this is all happening and we ask questions to us regulators.

00:27:46:03 - 00:27:52:09
Lyuda
Okay you want to have effective mechanism still was to Russia to circumvent sanctions, then change.

00:27:52:09 - 00:27:52:23
Bota
Travel.

00:27:52:24 - 00:28:34:06
Lyuda
Rule change assumption that you treat equally financial situations of third countries, authoritarian state and actually democracies. Did you transfer intelligence, financial intelligence, knowledge from democracy to authoritarian states, which is not used against actually criminals and organized groups or terrorists? Kazakhstan recognized Taliban as a legitimate government, but it's used against civil society in opposition. It takes 3 to 5 minutes to block bank account of opposition or civil society members whose fundraising for actually, you know, supportive of families of political prisoners.

00:28:34:06 - 00:28:59:07
Lyuda
And because our reality and these arguments, the change perspective of those politicians who meet us and those who support human rights because normally they want to support us, but they don't know how and they don't know what is the role of Bitcoin because you would not read it in the media. Where you do will see that media would write about abuse of anti-money laundering, counter-terrorism regulation.

00:28:59:09 - 00:29:26:01
Lyuda
Have you seen, for example, maybe publications, how, for example, activists were deprived or immigrants deprived the right to have financial services immediately In democracies? There is no this kind of information, and this is the reason why it's so important to work for the UN. Both achievements which we have and we have a lot of achievements right now. We just no capacity to go and continue this work and this is the reason why we came to Bitcoin.

00:29:26:01 - 00:29:47:11
Lyuda
I say let us guys do it together because you are the same activist as us because Satoshi Nakamoto was the same freedom activist as us. He created and gave us this tool. But it's nothing for granted. You have to defend it. It's a basic human rights, and human rights are dying if they are not defended. And we saw it's many, many times.

00:29:47:14 - 00:30:25:27
Marty
That's a very good point. Rights aren't granted. They're taken to defend it. And as it stands today with Bitcoin, we have to we have Bitcoin. We're using it in a peer to peer fashion. We're mining pretty efficiently and in many areas and we have to defend the right to do these things. And with that in mind, I know there is a pressing timeline here, so let's dive into the particulars of what is in front of the European Parliament as it pertains to proof of work, how long we have to convince lawmakers in the EU not to do this and what will happen if it does or does not pass.

00:30:25:29 - 00:30:54:10
Bota
Yeah, we have to work on several fronts, right? This is not just the European Parliament and in the European Parliament we actually going to have elections in the summer of this year. So when the new European Parliament comes and starts working in September, we have to be already fully ready and we have to work by then with all European institutions.

00:30:54:17 - 00:31:36:12
Bota
It means that ESMA it means the European Commission means with the European Central Bank. We have to work on those biases. We have to have the meetings. We really have to participate in the process of developing this sustainability indicators that ESMA is doing. We have to demand to meet with them, visit together with a Bitcoin mining community and with the experts on our side and address this issue, address this bias, and really explain to them our position and currently they all exist in research.

00:31:36:17 - 00:32:09:06
Bota
You know, right now when, when you say something that that bitcoin mining is actually can be helpful for the adoption of the renewable it's actually facilitated adoption of these renewable this is something that nobody knows about it in the EU and we have to come with miners from all over the world. We really need to bring miners in from Africa and demonstrate how they work there very successfully.

00:32:09:08 - 00:32:40:14
Bota
And they not only facility IT adoption of renewables, they actually provide people with work there. They create electricity for the communities that otherwise would have not had electricity. And this issue is extremely important for the European Union. And we also have to work at the level of the member states. Don't forget, the European Union's is a is it 27 countries, Red has 27 countries members, but we don't have to work with all of them.

00:32:40:14 - 00:33:17:03
Bota
But there are five key countries that really affect the both the energy policy and the environmental policy. And we have to work with the regulators there and we have to work with the parliaments there. So this is the best time to start. We really should have started two years ago. But, you know, we just hope that everyone understands that the issue is quite pressing and we have to jump into it.

00:33:17:06 - 00:33:41:23
Marty
And so what can anybody listening to this do to help you guys? And so as we talk about particularly this show, a lot of people that listen to the show are completely disenchanted from politics, whether it's here in the U.S. or the EU, myself included, to a certain extent, like I have this presupposition that the governments have too much control.

00:33:41:24 - 00:34:08:09
Marty
They like that control and they're not going to give it up. But you to have been doing a good job over the last week, you see me that again, these rights need to be defended. And we have seen here in the United States when the government tries to overstepped its bounds and infringe on bitcoiners rights to to use Bitcoin in particular ways that we have submitted comments to FinCEN, the Treasury basically saying, hey, this is way out of line.

00:34:08:09 - 00:34:31:01
Marty
They have reacted positively. And I know the answer to this because we discussed it last week. But I think for anybody who didn't hear that conversation, be valuable for them to hear it now, do you have confidence that if action is taken to educate the EU politicians that proof of work could be saved in the EU?

00:34:31:03 - 00:34:56:27
Lyuda
Yeah, I think we have all actually chances that we can protect for proof of work and the way how we do it through submissions, through face to face meetings. So what kind of submission, for example, we've done to FinCEN, we collected testimonials of all human rights defenders and basically met with the Treasurer, met with State Department and explain them.

00:34:56:27 - 00:35:26:09
Lyuda
Of course you can have some ground to say that this instrument can be used by criminals, but please take into consideration that enormous amount of people financially excluded in most of countries is a very tiny state. We have no other tools and we need to have mutual land which talks to technology and we provide it's all set of recommendations, including actually travel, rule reform and other things, which are what you mentioned during our discussion.

00:35:26:09 - 00:35:52:02
Lyuda
What has to be changed. This is the first things. The second thing we want to do the same what we've done, for example, providing our testimonials of Bitcoin and miners and Bitcoin miners for humanity, for human rights defenders and Bitcoin miners to EU institutions. We need do the same in the US. So the also know who are and what is exactly social impact of bitcoin mining.

00:35:52:02 - 00:36:17:20
Lyuda
Why it's important because we have no they don't see difference between proof of stake and proof of work. This is something with not enough to be said just in podcast, but it has to be written in the language and dependable for regulators, which we afterwards could refer as a personal testimonial. So witness the statements of those who actually and users of Bitcoin, those who benefit from proof of work.

00:36:17:22 - 00:36:46:16
Lyuda
And these testimonials. Everyone who is listening to this podcast from where no matter where you are from, please reach us out and we will help you to shape these testimonials in a framework understandable for regulators. And it will one more step to defend human rights and the proof of work actually in institutions. And it's doable. It's absolutely doable because we heard many times business voices of miners.

00:36:46:16 - 00:37:10:03
Lyuda
We ready to hear them. So we have this view. We are very positive on this. Of course, it doesn't matter that there are no better actors. There are better actress because this false narrative exist. Someone created them. Right? But if we don't try to combine them, we will not dismiss them. They will be the only one in this area.

00:37:10:06 - 00:37:35:03
Lyuda
And the third thing, we need to have capacity. We need is a non-governmental organization, a nonprofit organization to have support, any kind of support, volunteers, financial support, whatever. We are happy to cooperate and be a platform for voices as we always been for 15 years to EU and U.S. regulators and defend the only tool we have for financial freedom right now.

00:37:35:05 - 00:38:05:18
Bota
Yeah, and I just would like to add that we hear it a lot, that there's nothing can be done. We don't trust politicians. You know, politicians are cruel, Politics is dirty. And for us, it's very frustrating to to to hear is that in in the US and in the European Union because we believe this is you have all the instruments you really have to get engage into activism.

00:38:05:20 - 00:38:43:16
Bota
And you know, there are certain forms of activism and for some reason, for a lot of people it creates kind of created some kind of negative connotation. But it's something that this is how you can directly affect the policies. If you are quiet, why you you should think that the government should act in your best interest. You have to show that you are a citizen, you are a voter, you have a position, you organize yourself and you bring all this issues to the table of the regulators.

00:38:43:18 - 00:39:13:12
Bota
And we really we have activists dying to have that literally dying, right? We just had this horrible tragedy with Navalny in Russia, dying in prison, but being killed in prison. And we have activists, opposition politicians in prisons all over the world just to have and they are all fighting to have the right to kind of influence the policies of their countries.

00:39:13:14 - 00:39:44:03
Bota
And you have that right. It's already right given to you by the Constitution and existing laws. And for some reason you prefer to ignore it and just not do much. Please, guys, wake up. We have a chance. We have a really serious fighting chance. And we have to defend this technology, this technology that it's not only technologies that bring in money to you, but this is technologies that saves lives.

00:39:44:06 - 00:39:52:04
Bota
And that's why we're willing to fight. We have the skin in the game. So we want you to join our fight.

00:39:52:06 - 00:40:12:11
Marty
And what is your hope in the long run that Bitcoin succeeds? Let's say we're successful at defending proof of work, at defending the right to hold your own keys and to transact as privately as possible. What does the world look like in your mind on the other side of successes against encroachments from the state?

00:40:12:14 - 00:40:37:17
Lyuda
My success it no one's personal financial data would not be able to use to torture people to kidnap the one day I would not be wake up like I was wake up in 2018 by Botha saying that your brother was taken as a hostage because of weaponization of my. And you've been in data by three regimes. I hope it'll never, ever happen to anyone.

00:40:37:19 - 00:41:07:23
Lyuda
And we would be able to manage our financial freedoms. We would have decentralized financial tool. I hope that people will understand that money, responsibility. It's also knowledge that you should eliminate around yourself and financial literacy. And this is something your responsibility, not someone has to do it. If you enjoy financial freedom, if you enjoy any kind of freedom, that means that someone did this job centuries or maybe years ago.

00:41:07:23 - 00:41:19:19
Lyuda
And we right now doing the same in our countries and European Union and the US. It's a safe countries for us, and Bitcoin is the only instrument for us and that's why we defend it here.

00:41:19:21 - 00:41:48:20
Bota
Well, yeah, and we will be able I for me with this instrument and this is something that Bitcoin will will mainstream, right. Which is very important for us because then it will become an instrument for the civil society. And so as a civil society, we will be able to raise financing to finance position in the countries where the banking system and basically create sort of is I should provide this as well.

00:41:48:27 - 00:42:13:17
Bota
They're just instruments of law enforcement, all those countries. Right. And they spy on people rather than being neutral institutions. So we believe that we believe in in Bitcoin, we believe in its power and we believe the civil society around the world should adopt it.

00:42:13:19 - 00:42:26:22
Marty
Let's dive into that example of the government using your banking information not to kidnap your brother. But what like just to give an example of how this happened, what happened.

00:42:26:24 - 00:43:04:13
Bota
A concrete example is that I live in Belgium. I have political asylum in Kazakhstan because of the work I was doing defending political prisoners and politically persecuted people and victims of torture. They were constantly attacking. Musee tried to extradite me twice from Belgium. It didn't work, so they tried to kidnap me from Belgium and three people were actually sentenced in Belgium, two Germans and one Russian, thanks to the Belgium Federal police.

00:43:04:15 - 00:43:26:01
Bota
But it didn't work. So what what the government of Kazakhstan did they send a request is that it's called the Mutual Legal assistance request request for the information. And they got my banking data in banking data. What is like think about what you have on your bank statement. You have all the information and you have all your contacts, basically.

00:43:26:03 - 00:44:02:07
Bota
Right. And They really can figure out who is your doctor, where you go, where you stay. If you travel, this is in and they can figure out you, even your family contacts, because because of their transfers. Right. And they looked at my bank account and they realized that that the way how they they realize that I have a weak point and this is my family in Kazakhstan and my brothers and my older brother my parents lived there at that time and my older brother.

00:44:02:10 - 00:44:42:28
Bota
And one day they just came, arrested my brother and accuse him and my new wandering, which is was absolutely baseless. And then they they said that we will we're going to release you if you make your sister to go back to Kazakhstan. And my brother refused and he was tortured for two months and all the now it's only because of interference of the Western politicians, the members of the European Parliament, members of the Senate and Congress are in the end of the day, my brother was released and he managed to leave the country.

00:44:43:01 - 00:44:52:07
Bota
But basically that's that's how it works. That's how the abuse of anti-money laundering regulation is happening.

00:44:52:10 - 00:45:13:21
Marty
And it's insane. I'm sorry, had to go through that, number one. But it's just insane to me. And this is probably why I don't like engaging in politics. It's because everything that the government does, I'm a big free markets, anti-government. I think the government makes everything worse. They print money and throw it at things that don't make sense.

00:45:13:21 - 00:45:53:29
Marty
They write these draconian laws as it pertains to KYC, AML, like since 1971. I believe in the Bank Secrecy Act here in the United States, I think is the core of a lot of these problems that exist in the world of data collection for financial transactions stems from that law. Everything since then, it's just gotten worse. And despite the fact that all the KYC, AML Regulation, all the travel rule regulation, the in a hyper digitalized world has only gotten more and more stringent their ability to actually stop crime and money laundering has gotten worse and worse.

00:45:53:29 - 00:46:26:02
Marty
I think something like 0.1 percent of global money laundering is prevented by KYC, AML regulations and compliance, actually catching people that are laundering money. It's completely ineffective. And as you just explained, like collecting this and holding it in securely and holding it in a way where despotic, authoritarian governments can request that information at a moment's notice. And you have to deliver it due to the information sharing that comes with complying with the travel rule.

00:46:26:07 - 00:46:54:19
Marty
You can you just put a lot of people in harm's way. And there's this obsession with personal identifying information collection that the governments have that is completely counterproductive to the goals that they're claiming they want to achieve, which is reducing financial harm. And they're actually increasing physical harm by trying to reduce the financial crimes, which it's just like, All right, guys, this obviously isn't working.

00:46:54:23 - 00:47:17:06
Marty
You have to figure out a better way, become better police and investigators to stop actual crime. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and just do a wide swath mass surveillance of everybody and put everybody at risk. Like, that's the point we're getting to. And despite the failure of these policies to actually stop, the crimes are claiming they want to stop.

00:47:17:06 - 00:47:26:10
Marty
They keep doubling, tripling, quadrupling down to the point where they want a digital I.D., which is just gonna make things much worse.

00:47:26:13 - 00:48:01:00
Bota
It's coming. It's coming as digital IDs, currency BTC is coming. It was actually you will be surprised how it's very much welcome and embraced by authoritarian countries, which gives you a little bit information how it's going to be misused. And again, unless we see something, unless we resist, unless we limit the ability of the government to implement those policies, nothing will change.

00:48:01:02 - 00:48:26:17
Bota
Sorry, Martin. No, this is why if it's you can hate the government as much as you want, but this is the existing evil, right? It's necessary. Evil. Yeah. And it's easy to hate it when you you enjoy certain security, right? You enjoy protection of the of the your property rights. But in the world of countries, people don't enjoy that.

00:48:26:19 - 00:48:37:01
Bota
They don't have this privilege. So you are lucky and you have all of the privileges. You should use them to defend your rights.

00:48:37:03 - 00:49:02:03
Lyuda
Yeah, exactly. You cannot do safely even this kind of discussion in the threatening states. We just all will be killed or will be paid in prison or will be tortured or sentenced for many years. You know, our families will be taken as hostages. The difference between authoritarian states and democracies, no matter how we love them or not to hate them, that we have tools and we can operate safely like relative safety.

00:49:02:03 - 00:49:29:04
Lyuda
Of course there is always certain anyways backfire, but anyways, it's a I can conduct advocacy and have this open dialog with regulators and legislators can criticize them saying that guys, your regulation is killing me. Please help me. Please actually introduce my recommendations. And they doing it while for example, in the three Italian states I would not even able to share a post on Facebook or like this kind of information.

00:49:29:12 - 00:49:52:09
Lyuda
This is enough to basically eliminate me and this is the reality. So it's about our choice just to complain or just to take this power what you have because because you are citizens of you, because you are citizens of us, Canada and other democracies, and actually say, Hi guys, you represent my interests and I'm not angry with you.

00:49:52:11 - 00:50:05:28
Lyuda
Actually, I want to use Bitcoin as a legitimate instrument. You don't understand what is proof of work, what is P2P transactions, what is social good for? Listen to me and they will listen to you. And this is your power.

00:50:06:00 - 00:50:36:25
Marty
And going back to what you said earlier about narrative being very powerful, that's one thing I think Bitcoiners have gotten wise on, particularly in the last 5 to 6 years, is you got to tell better stories. It's very important in this information battle that we're in because at the end of the day, this is really what we're engaged in, is an information warfare for the hearts and minds of the individuals who will either step up to defend their rights or let the government and the regulators run over them.

00:50:36:27 - 00:51:16:22
Marty
And that's why I think the act of the activism that you two are engaged is extremely powerful because it's somewhat of an ironclad narrative. Like Bitcoin literally saves lives and protects people from authoritarian governments. And I think that's something as an industry, we've gotten better at, but really need to perfect this narrative to the masses, which is an optimistic future, a future of abundance, a future of equality of opportunity, equality of access, equality of being able to attain a monetary good that is not debased will preserve your purchasing power over time.

00:51:16:22 - 00:51:41:21
Marty
There's very good optimistic lines that we can run with that that paint a very optimistic future with Bitcoin at the center of it, whether it's the open source network, the scarce money supply or the integration of the mining industry with the energy sector making it more robust so more people can have access to more reliable, cheaper energy. I think they're.

00:51:41:24 - 00:51:42:22
Lyuda
Exactly.

00:51:42:24 - 00:52:12:16
Bota
Exactly. And just one little thing I would like to add. It's please, please don't paint all the politicians with one black paint. You know, it's not only people that really, truly believe in human rights, that truly believe in financial freedom, that truly believe in economic freedom, that try to limit the like in fighting against, you know, kind of growing interference of the state.

00:52:12:18 - 00:52:34:18
Bota
You have to find them and you have to help those people because you kind of you are a power that feeds them. You have to have all the data that we need on our side. We just really have to bring that this data to the right people, and that will be their weapon and they will be fighting for us as well.

00:52:34:20 - 00:52:46:21
Marty
Yeah, we can't have Alex of years. The Dutch central bank minion in his terribly written paper for the Dutch economist or whatever it's called.

00:52:46:23 - 00:52:46:28
Bota
It's.

00:52:46:29 - 00:53:21:00
Lyuda
You know we need to have changes in one of the most I would say like books organization Interpol. So we signification which unites all ministries of interiors of the world. Of course, most of the Ministry of Interior of the world does have to be Italian. But nevertheless, we fight for reform. And actually, again, I would say that abuses of this important police instrument instrument, worse things to actually open doors from the anti-money laundering counter-terrorism regulations.

00:53:21:00 - 00:53:45:03
Lyuda
So this is the first stage how all politically motivated accusations happening on this basis. And then the police institution, US banking data is easily given to it or to handful of dictators. So we succeed to do reform of this institution. So we strongly believe that we can do changes altered the everyone was laughing at us saying, oh, you girls, you going to change this?

00:53:45:03 - 00:54:11:18
Lyuda
You see in this room only like, you know, privileged to ministries from all of this dictatorship, do we think they will listen to you. But we luckily had voices and support of legislators, democratic countries who, as what I said, really believe in human rights. And we did it. We did it. It's fucked. So right now you have clear procedure how to defend your rights, not be in this black box.

00:54:11:18 - 00:54:33:19
Lyuda
And even if you became a victim of abuse of Interpol, you have clear procedures how to remove yourself from there and even to demand compensation. We have to do the same with abuses of anti money immigration. We have to do the same with protecting labeling Bitcoin with any kind of war on these false accusations.

00:54:33:21 - 00:55:09:29
Marty
Yeah, maybe these politicians that I'm talking about about that want to do not bad things necessarily, but want more control. Maybe they depend on the complacency of the average Joe of the common man to just sit there like, oh, it's fine to be like, hey, if they're not going to do anything, we're going to take these rights. I think that's a big problem we have here in the West, specifically the United States is the populace here has become a bit complacent, literally felt a bit dumber, complacent, resting on our laurels, that just a lot of people to sit by and get pushed around and they'll complain on social media but really don't do anything.

00:55:10:03 - 00:55:16:28
Marty
At the end of the day, that's one of the biggest killers of freedom is apathy. Complacency.

00:55:17:01 - 00:55:23:19
Bota
Yes. And as a person who was once on the Interpol most wanted list.

00:55:23:22 - 00:55:27:29
Marty
That he take pride in that that's pretty bad ass.

00:55:28:01 - 00:55:52:18
Bota
I confirm everything with you that just said and but it happens to many of us because this is you know, people don't realize how is it Interpol works? Is the bulletin board right. And any authoritarian regime with dictatorship can just put your name and voila, you're wanted by everyone. It was the kind of institutions that was easily, easily abused.

00:55:52:21 - 00:55:58:06
Bota
But we changed the narrative. And so we can do the same with Bitcoin even more.

00:55:58:10 - 00:56:26:07
Lyuda
You complain about democracies, right? So I've had this case, one or three countries which actually abuse my rights and again, abuse anti-money laundering, counter-terrorism regulation. It was Poland and, you know, Poland is a member of European Union. Right. It gets really strongly to the side of authoritarian regimes is seen the contrary right now. But in like six years they were classified to me as a threat to national security.

00:56:26:10 - 00:57:01:06
Lyuda
I'm not joking. Like special services of Poland classified me as a threat to national security with no ground, and I was banned to enter EU for two weeks until the moment when parliaments of Germany, Belgium, France and many other institutions President Macron, president of Germany, stand on and my rights. Also former Prime minister of Belgium. And they granted me well, I'm a threat to national security in Poland, national interest in their countries, and we succeed to change not do we succeed to actually is false.

00:57:01:06 - 00:57:29:07
Lyuda
How authoritarian regimes or democracies which started to abuse their power, able to manipulate, you know, the threat national security accusations towards two critical or critical critics, critical people like me. And we change it. So now everyone who is treated in the same way, like me, they have a number of protection tools, they have remedies, and they can easily defend their rights.

00:57:29:10 - 00:57:56:00
Lyuda
And I not only defend defended rights of myself, I actually, together with my team, established a mechanism which was adopted and supported by many human rights legislators and regulators in the EU. So it's again, one more example, but everything is doable and we have a lot of tools in our heads, but we need not just to complain in social media, we need to come to meet with them and say, This is my proposals, this is my argumentation.

00:57:56:03 - 00:58:06:27
Lyuda
And if you are, stick with argumentation, you go to defend your position. We prove it so many times and we happy to do it to actually defend Bitcoin.

00:58:06:29 - 00:58:50:23
Bota
Unfortunately, we cannot do all of those things without help. We need we need the community behind us and we really need people to get engaged because to do this type of changes, you need a lot a lot of participations from basically not only from activists. That part, you know, we know how to speak with activist and activists, ready to fight, but we need help from Bitcoin miners, from industry experts that will come and meet with the regulators, meet with the politicians and be willing to provide their testimonies.

00:58:50:23 - 00:58:53:18
Bota
And then we can do a lot of things.

00:58:53:20 - 00:59:04:00
Marty
Yeah, you guys are pretty badass. Interpol's most wanted is fighting back against all these governments, and.

00:59:04:01 - 00:59:11:02
Bota
That's why I was removed from the database when Interpol realized that was politically motivated.

00:59:11:05 - 00:59:18:11
Lyuda
And I'm also not a threat to national security anymore. I'm not classified anymore. And they let us apologize.

00:59:18:13 - 00:59:39:09
Marty
Because I have a lot of stories to tell. This is going to be it's going to be fun decades from now. When we look back, Bitcoin is succeeded. We've we've rolled out a lot of the evil in the world and it was hey, yeah, I was I was on the Interpol most wanted list. I can't say that here in America, they have not come anywhere close to that list.

00:59:39:12 - 01:00:02:00
Marty
It's pretty badass, you guys. I mean, it's pretty heavy. Everything you're working on, putting yourself in the crosshairs of a lot of very powerful governments around the world. How what keeps you going? How does the stress how do you not succumb to the stress of all the things you do?

01:00:02:02 - 01:00:31:25
Bota
Sometimes it can be extremely, extremely difficult. Especially, you know, it's it's not the difficult part is not dealing with the democratic regulators or members of the parliament. Difficult part for me, the most difficult part when we work on the cases of torture, that probably the most difficult, emotionally draining and we have a lot of unfortunately, we have a lot of experience of working in those cases.

01:00:31:27 - 01:00:57:22
Bota
And, you know, sometimes we need even professional help like ceremonies because it it's it's very hard. You you know, it takes time for a person to start talking for a victim of torture. And you have to go with him through it step by step, step by step to kind of to get all this information on paper. It's it's extremely painful.

01:00:57:22 - 01:01:37:04
Bota
And then that haunts you for a long time. But I think we we do it because we really you kind of you feel this internal gratification. You understand why it's important to you see how you change your life. You see how you change your life not only of that person, but that person's family members. We have a job as a support that that is very important from, you know, our community activities.

01:01:37:07 - 01:01:57:15
Bota
You know, we never work on any issue, so we always have a group of people coalition. So we work on this Bitcoin advocacy issue as a coalition, but on other subjects we work as different coalitions as well. So that helps kind of a network.

01:01:57:18 - 01:02:28:00
Lyuda
Yeah, exactly. In my case, I used to have experience as a teenager how it's so important that there are people defending ready to come in to defend your family member who is taken as a hostage because of not agreeing to, for example, corrupt deals or for criticizing the government. And we see this light in the tunnel. And someone said, yeah, no worries, you can actually meet your brother in the hospital he's back from being taken hostage.

01:02:28:00 - 01:02:55:22
Lyuda
And I think the most difficult for all of this case is when our relative suffers. And I wanted to be seen that time, this kind of hope just to other people who needed help and actually to provide this help. So I think this is something no matter what's happened with me, I tried to actually to overcome it. It's easier when it's something happened with me, actually, because I also this myself from my case.

01:02:55:24 - 01:03:22:12
Lyuda
It's not easy. It's just like easier when your relatives are taken as a hostage. I think what I will agree with me that you can actually, as a person responsible for your activity, overcome difficulties, you know, what kind of mechanism you have, but you feel completely powerless sometimes when your family members, your close people are taken as a hostage and you need to release you need to do all efforts because I think the most difficult.

01:03:22:14 - 01:03:55:11
Marty
Yeah, yeah. Again I can't imagine that. I mean, being an American, not having to really put myself out there to that extent. I mean, yes, I have a podcast and a newsletter and website where we do talk bad about the government, their policies and all that. And I luckily, despite whether or not I believe America is as free as it maybe should be, I do have the ability to do this without having to worry about any of that.

01:03:55:11 - 01:04:15:23
Marty
So it is something that I and certainly many other Americans definitely take for granted. And it's really grounding to speak with you to learn more about your experiences, because it is insane that people have to go through this on a daily basis all throughout the world.

01:04:15:25 - 01:04:39:28
Lyuda
Yes. And most of the countries are authoritarian. So what are you doing? Actually, I would not say that. It's absolutely you know, it's important work because you you criticize, you see, you have a right to criticize and you exercising your rights. Now, do one step more, actually try to extract from those who represent your interests, even if you don't like them, that they follow actually your recommendations and you can do it.

01:04:40:02 - 01:04:57:25
Lyuda
You have all instruments in your hands and we are happy to actually assist and be this platform, say who is actually pro human rights because we work for them, for them for over 15 years and we happy to do it both in us and you. And I'm sure that we can do beautiful things together.

01:04:57:27 - 01:04:59:13
Marty
I agree we're going to win.

01:04:59:15 - 01:05:01:28
Lyuda
But we have to. We don't have other chance.

01:05:02:00 - 01:05:17:11
Marty
We have to work. And with that mind, is there anything we didn't touch on that we should touch on Before we wrap up? Any information you think is pertinent, then anybody listening to this has access to any calls to action.

01:05:17:14 - 01:05:38:03
Lyuda
I mean, call to action. Support us. And remember, guys, everyone who is developing more and more access to both freedom to financial freedom tools for such people, like we love you, really, we love you and we want you to actually support it as much as possible. Bring your technologies. We need to litigate as much as possible people. We want to define proof of work.

01:05:38:06 - 01:05:44:01
Lyuda
We know how to do it. Let us do it together. Give us your testimonials, give us your support, and let's do it together.

01:05:44:04 - 01:06:00:03
Bota
And when you see that Bitcoin is an instrument of freedom, remember us. It is an instrument of freedom. And really we need you your help to defend this instrument. Yeah.

01:06:00:05 - 01:06:34:04
Marty
Let's do it for we're going to link to both your profile is in the show notes, link to your website and get active freaks, whether it's in the EU, the global audience, and EU freaks listening to this, right? Yes. Let's get active. Yes. And here in the United States, send your submissions and pushback. Yeah. I think that FinCEN the FinCEN comments that went through last month are yet to be determined whether or not they convinced the government to to back off of what the Treasury would like to do.

01:06:34:04 - 01:06:45:22
Marty
But we shall see. I think it was very powerful. Let's keep doing it, engage where it makes sense and just bring. That's the thing. We have the data on our side. We have the truth on our side.

01:06:45:24 - 01:06:48:13
Bota
Yeah, Yeah. We need to bring that data.

01:06:48:15 - 01:06:49:11
Marty
Yes.

01:06:49:14 - 01:07:08:09
Lyuda
So and one last thing. If you are in my day and if you are BTC Prague conference, reach us out. We are happy to meet you guys in life and I think more people from us has to come to you because otherwise we have limited capacity to come to us. So we would love to meet you in person and get the testimonies.

01:07:08:09 - 01:07:21:02
Lyuda
We will do meetings. Last time we did it in Prague. Also meetings in the Parliament. We will try to organize things also this time. So we would love to reach out.

01:07:21:04 - 01:07:25:03
Marty
Let's go. All right, Berta, Ludo, thank you for your time.

01:07:25:03 - 01:07:27:28
Lyuda
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

01:07:27:28 - 01:07:31:01
Marty
Keep crushing at peace and love for speaking.